Not how the inter-ethnic conflict between Blacks and Asians should be resolved.
Inter-ethnic tension between the Black and Asian communities has risen to the forefront of blogosphere discussion in the last couple of weeks, following several reports of violence between the two groups. In Brooklyn, five elderly Asian women were violently assaulted; some of their attackers, all of whom were Black teens, were turned in by their parents.
And in San Francisco, a 59-year old San Francisco man named Tian Sheng Yu, was brutally attacked while he and his son were out shopping last Friday afternoon; Yu died this morning following a head injury sustained during the attack. Prosecutors – who arrested the perpetrators (who happen to be 18-years-old African American men) after one turned himself in — note that the attack appeared to lack an obvious motive (such as robbery), and that Yu and his son may have been targeted based on their race.
Tian Sheng Yu, 59, died this morning following a brutal assault on Friday afternoon in the San Francisco area. Prosecutors are investigating whether this is a hate crime.
These are only the few of the many examples of Black-Asian tension that make the headlines; yet, (as many within both communities can attest) deep conflict and resentment between our two communities persists below the surface.
New America Media posted a commentary from 22-year-old Amanze Emenike, a Black man who was raised in one neighbourhood in the San Francisco area to target Asians and Latinos, not fellow Blacks, for petty theft and crime. Emenike argues that recent examples of violent and non-violent crime (apparently targeting Asians) are not symptoms of anti-Asian racism, but of economic opportunism.
If young people try to rob an old black person in Hunters Point, they usually don’t know who they are messing with and they can fall into beef with the victim’s family or community. Robbing African Americans, it’s more likely that the family will come back and harm the robber. So young people go after Chinese and Mexicans.
[...]
The reason Asian kids are getting robbed is because there is an assumption that young Chinese kids on Third Street are filthy rich and have an i-Pod or laptop on them. To a young, broke black male, the appeal of nabbing a few hundred dollars from some Asian kid’s pocket is even greater during this recession. The young homies in Hunters Point need money for shoes and clothes.
It’s true that racism rarely manifests in the outright, pillow-case-wearing, cross-burning variety: most racism hides in the guise of economic misfortune and ignorance. After all, when Asian immigrants (from countries like China, Japan and Korea) landed in the West Coast, anti-Asian sentiment arose from fears that Asian “coolies” were taking jobs from hard-working White Americans. Anti-Asian hatred was then justified as backlash due to rampant unemployment, not rabid KKK-ness — even if the consequences of both forms of racism (such as discrimination, assault and even lynchings) were the same.
Here, Emenike argues that the targeting of Asians by young Blacks who have fallen into a criminal lifestyle is a matter of survival and opportunism. Fellow African Americans weren’t targeted because you didn’t know whose grandmama you might have just assaulted; but Asians, on the other hand, were fair game because not only were they unlikely to ever be able to track you down (because they aren’t part of your community), but they might have lots of cool Stuff(tm).
Yet, how is this not still racist stereotyping of Asians? Emenike’s sentiments describe the model minority myth to a tee — the justification that Asians should be targeted for crime arises from the presupposition that Asians are meek, mild-mannered and unassuming folks who have shit tons ‘o cash on their person. Moreover, Emenike demonstrates how petty criminals like those he grew up with dehumanize their targets; Emenike thinks about how Black victims are potentially family members of people he knows, whereas he has no problem not thinking about the consequences of his childhood crimes on the families of Asian victims. In other words, Asians (somehow) won’t really be affected by the crime, so we’re all fair game.
Now, this isn’t to say that the inter-ethnic tension between Blacks and Asians is a one-way street. Asians (as Asians will tell you) can be particularly racist against the African American community. Colourstruck hatred of dark-skinned people arose, independently, in many Asian cultures — and manifests today in a “light makes right” mentality that encourages distrust of Blacks amongst Asians (particularly more elderly Asians).
In addition, many Asian immigrants have made their money by being willing to enter economic niches generally not tapped by other entrepreneurs. Because of White flight and anti-Black racism that diminishes opportunities for Black small-business owners (when it comes to getting start-up loans, for example), Asian immigrants frequently have started small businesses in the virtually uninhabited commercial-sectors near predominantly Black residential areas; consequently, in many cities, Asian businesses tend to serve predominantly Black clienteles, where we are perceived as siphoning money from the Black community.
And then, there’s the purely American, directly conflicting stereotypes, themselves. Blacks are depicted in American media as ignorant, lazy, poor, and criminal (which they aren’t). Asians are perceived as meek, eager-to-please, upwardly mobile, and opportunistic (which we aren’t). We sit at the opposite extreme constrasts of racial stereotypes; and in one another, we resent and hate that which we are told they are, and that we are not. In other words, we’re buying into all the racist shit they’re saying about each other.
Couple all of that with a language barrier a mile thick, and you’ve got a recipe for a perfect storm of distrust, tension, and open hostility.
But, what we must realize is that the Black-Asian tension and hostility is not predestined. There’s nothing about our communities that require that we hate one another; indeed, it is the stereotypes, perpetuated by mainstream American culture, that fuels the rage and conflict between our communities.
And, rather than to talk about how both communities have internalized racism against the other community, we hide behind our own oppressions and make excuses about our own bigotry. Mundane conflict between our two groups makes for fodder on YouTube.
In the wake of crimes between Asian and Black communities, it is tempting to, as Brooklyn resident Tiffany Tan remarked, “[not] go near them”. But that self-imposed segregation will only exacerbate the problem, by allowing racist ideas and prejudice to fester. Instead, to end these rash of Black-Asian conflicts (some headline-making and some mundane), we need to address the root of the problem: why do our communities have beef in the first place?
In order to do that, we need to open the lines of communication between the Black and the Asian community, and address the racism that both our communities are guilty of internalizing. We need to talk about the reasons that we foster prejudice against one another, and the costs — in human lives — of that hatred. Only by interacting with (not isolating ourselves from) each other will we see how the real problem is not one another, but the racism that we collectively face.
“By the way, I find it interesting that any time males find women that are not attracted to them, they automatically become sluts.”
…..really? I’ve never heard/experienced that and I’m asian-american. I hear this is more of a problem in the military rather than among “asian men” in general. I read in the news that women in the military are labeled “sluts” or “d*kes” or “bitches” depending on how receptive she is to the men. That’s of course unfair but I blame that on the military macho-culture rather than asian men.
Ohhhh…I finally understand the “slut” reference. Chris was responding to steveb.
Well, I AM aware of the japanese subculture steveb was talking about. Ganguro girls right?
I would not label them “sluts” because I believe women should be the only owner of their sexuality. That said, ganguro girls really DO behave much differently than your typical “respectable” japanese woman.
They’re a sub-culture that worships black-american culture and the girls of that subculture seek out black men. They’re also more obvious with their sexual relationships with men, which isn’t typical of women in japan or of women, PERIOD. In much of asia, it’s not common for people in romantic relationships to be all touchy-feely in public. And most women certainly don’t “pursue” men. Ganguro girls are the antithesis to that, which is why a LOT of people consider them to be “sluts”.
In japan, if a guy were to introduce a ganguro girl to his family, I imagine his parents would have a heart attack.
@ steve b
Wow, I missed this comment when it first came out. What the hell is this all about? Why are you incredulous at the notion of black entrepreneurship?
Buying into racist stereotypes, perhaps?
@steveb and jm
I have a fairly lax comment policy, but I don’t think the discussion is helped by the perpetuation of the stereotype that ALL (or even most)crimes experienced by Asians are committed by Blacks. Certainly the statistics don’t bear that out.
I find that kind of generalization misleading and offensive. It’s also divisive as all get out — it’s one of the very reasons there are tensions between our two communities.
Jm. You are well spoken and I appreciate your take. I think different cultures do need to share their views. There is much we can learn from each other. As this is suppose to be a forum on violence by Blacks against Asians, it can quickly turn into something else. I also believe Asians are overlooked in the American society. Steve b and I quickly took the conversation back to black white relations which seems to be societies focus and that is wrong. As I said, I have a big respect for asian cultures. I have traveled and lived in many locations. I studied martial arts for years and enjoy reading about Asian history. It is amazing how many contributions Asians have made here since the Gold Rush days but few hear about it in our local history. I think more blacks need to be exposed to communiction between the two groups. I think this will take some opening up on the Asian communities side as well. As blacks, we are an open book and express ourselves loudly. Sometimes too loudly some might say. Maybe if these young men took the time to realize the value we all bring to this society, they would not attack others the way they do. Especially those they perceive to be weak like women or cultural groups that tend to carry themselves in a quieter manner.
By the way JM,while I appreciate your honest feelings as an Asian male, it is interesting how we see things different. You have never seen men call women out of their name because they could not pick them up. I see it all the time. It seems to be a man’s self defense to his feelings that if he is rejected, there must be something wrong with the girl. I also hope that you do not promote the feeling that you spoke of that all girls that date black men are of low morals. Some might be but certainly not all. I think black males and Asian females share many stereotypes in our society. We both are said to have certain sexual skills that other racial groups seek out. We also suffer from those steeotypes at times as well. We definitely participate in interracial relationships more than other groups which is seen by some as self-hatred. After posting yesterday, I read back and found out that Steve B is married to a Korean. While I do not agree with what he says, I am sure this guy has experinced things I never have. There is the racist perception that white guys and asian women have this disfunctional post war relationship where the white man is in power and his wife is the servant wife. The whole suky, suky, fuky fuky thing. I also know people that promote the idea that black males with white women come from the forbiden fruit scenario where the white woman who heard of the black mans physical endowment finally gets a chance to experience this mystery. These feelings do exist in our society and I am not one to walk through life with blinders on. As I said before, we live in a complex world.
‘In fact, asians get NONE of the “luxuries” that most minorities get.”
Oh sure blacks and other minorities have so much more luxuries over asians huh……………………..
Chris, and Jenn…understand where I am coming from. Bringing black/white into the mix is not what I’m doing. What I wrote about the Japanese girls who date blacks is that they are a small fringe culture that embrace…and I mean embraced…the act and look. And I think you know exactly what I am talking about.
As far as black male white female…it isn’t the consistent dynamics as with the Japanese. I don’t denigrate any interracial union, that is a personal choice. I simply stated you could see the Japanese a mile away from their attitude and appearance. I use to chuckle a this and it is true, I think they are a total turnoff. Eventually, I assume they will hopefully eventually grow up because those women look rode hard and put away wet…virtually without exception.
My own wife does not desire to be white and I don’t desire to be Asian. I know of no Asians who want to be white and I personally don’t know of any whites wanting to be Asian. But no doubt some exist…there are always people on the fringe. There is no real advantage in either case..we are what we are. She didn’t marry me because she wanted her children to look more white and I didn’t marry her because I wanted our kids to look more Asian. Interestingly, Asians think they look white and whites think they look Asian. In any case, the DNA combo has worked out very well.
Getting back to black violence on Asians…I can speak from family experience that it is out of whack given population representation. We can discuss percentages all day long but it has to be balanced by percentage of total of population. It becomes more complex because of locale considerations but the fact of the matter is that blacks do more violence on themselves and others given population size than any other group. I defy you to prove otherwise. I should also temper this by saying black Americans….because I have no reason to believe black Africans are inherently more violent because I haven’t researched it…other than some reading about black violence in S. Africa. But I do believe black American culture is inherently violent and dysfunctional proportionately despite the Bill Cosby type shows which try to paint a different picture of black culture. There was a time when blacks were painted into a corner….now I believe they paint themselves into a corner and they need to develop the tools to get themselves out of the corner. Assaulting others is not a practical or desirable tool…but it certainly appears to be the tool of choice.
JM…why would you cry yourself to sleep if you had Jolie lips? That makes no sense…I know plenty of Asians with big lips…what difference does it make? I guess we don’t have to worry about you getting your lips enlarged, eh? Maybe to appear more black?
Minority status…my wife hasn’t enjoyed any benefits and neither have our daughters (unlike obama) so I’m confused as to the claim about Asians enjoying special privileges. If anything, Asians are on the outside as is evidenced by college discrimination to provide for the rest, including whites, to have greater access. Reagan, when he was governor of CA, was questioned about the concern that the student body at UC Berkeley would be all Asian if AA was canned…he responded “I don’t care if every seat is taken by an Asian as long as they have earned the right to be there.” We will never, ever hear the likes of obama saying this. In other words…meritocracy and lets be honest, Asians..not all (I know plenty of Lao and Khmer who are anti-education)…are given the tools and expectations by their parents to excel academically proportionately speaking.
There has been discussion about the glass ceiling for Asians in corporate leadership positions…something I certainly have observed but most of it isn’t because of being Asian but rather about being relatively vertical thinking. But nevertheless, it is a reality.
So, no, I do not believe Asians have minority status without minority trimmings. But I also believe despite all the ballyhoo about white privilege, it is overstated by those with a racialized agenda.
Jenn…I have in-laws in K-town (some have moved out) and trust me, these people are merely responding to the situation they bought into with the business they had…and now have. They, for some reason (maybe you can clue me into as to why since you want to justify behaviors), they are now able to turn a profit and actually get along with their customers.
I suppose I could discuss the nail salon next to their old business with an almost exclusive black clientele and ran and staffed by ethnic Chinese. The environment there (I took our daughters there when we were headed to Maui via LA) was chilling if not downright toxic. I have never observed so demanding and demeaning customers to the nail techs as I did there. And then when we left a tip…it was like a whole new experience. Can you explain this? I think the techs were bending over backwards to appease what I consider abuse.
I chuckle at LL…Asians should get out of black hoods. And just who will take their place and start up businesses?
Blacks?
Sure…and the moon is made of cheese.
Wow, I missed this comment when it first came out. What the hell is this all about? Why are you incredulous at the notion of black entrepreneurship?
Buying into racist stereotypes, perhaps?
Racist stereotypes? Nah…but tell me, why aren’t blacks opening these businesses? Why are they not being as industrious about opening small businesses? Why are they leaving it up to the Koreans and others to do so…and then complain about it?
Entrepreneurship? Again…proportion to population. I’m not incredulous about anything…it is just a simple fact.
[...] just didn’t happen, finally fell on the back-burner. Recently, however, I read another post (here) that addressed this topic, but in a manner that felt – to me – to retain the very same [...]
[...] the issue articulated over at Jenn’s blog, Reappropriate. In the comments to her post “Inside Black and Asian Tension: Sometimes It is About Racism” a commenter provides a textbook illustration of the sentiment I am discussing: I find what [...]
Racist stereotypes? Nah…but tell me, why aren’t blacks opening these businesses? Why are they not being as industrious about opening small businesses? Why are they leaving it up to the Koreans and others to do so…and then complain about it?
Entrepreneurship? Again…proportion to population. I’m not incredulous about anything…it is just a simple fact.
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How would you know anything about Black people, but your racism and disgust for Black people keeps shining through? This press release the Census shows that Black owned businesses in Black neighborhoods and elsewhere has actually increased despite the rampant racism in securing a small or medium sized business. but how would you know that since you don’t know any real Black people, but the few that represent your idea of rampant pathology: From a simple Google search since your too lazy and racist to see actual gains in the community, from the Census Bureau’s as of 2006 here are the facts:
Businesses
$92.7 billion
Receipts for black-owned businesses in 2002, up 30 percent from 1997. The rate at which black-owned businesses increased their receipts was higher than the national average (22 percent).
1.2 million
The number of black-owned businesses in 2002, up by more than 370,000, or 45 percent, since 1997. An estimated 94,862 such firms had paid employees, with receipts of $69.8 billion or about $735,586 per firm.
• Thirty-eight percent of black-owned firms were in health care and other service industries; health care and retail trade accounted for a fourth of their receipts.
• A fourth of the businesses in Washington, D.C., were black-owned. Black-owned businesses accounted for between 12 percent and 15 percent of firms in Maryland, Georgia, Mississippi and Louisiana.
• Black business owners were more likely to hold graduate degrees when they started or acquired ownership in their business (about 1-in-4) than the national average (19 percent).
• Asian and black business owners were more likely to hold graduate degrees when they started or acquired ownership in their business (about 1-in-4) than the national average (19 percent).
• Or how about the ffact that even with these figures, Blacks are still being discriminated which makes it that much harder for Blacks to make legimate gains in this country:
• Loans handed out to struggling small businesses as part of President Barack Obama’s stimulus package have largely shut out minority businesses — especially those owned by Blacks and Latinos — according to data provided by the federal government’s Small Business Administration (SBA) to New America Media (NAM).
• The Obama Administration does not report the racial breakdown of who’s benefiting from these loans at Recovery.gov, but data obtained by NAM from the SBA found that of the 4,497 ARC loans where the race of the borrower was reported, 4,104 (over 91 percent) went to white-owned firms, 140, (3 percent) went to Hispanic-owned businesses, and 151 (3 percent) went to Asian- or Pacific Islander-owned businesses. Only 65, (1.5 percent) went to black-owned firms.
• Overall, white-owned businesses received over $130 million in loans through the program, while Hispanic-owned businesses got $4 million and black-owned businesses less than $2 million.
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=d40e83db3ee2eb66d27effb8a50ac34f
• From the fourth quarter of 2007 through fourth quarter of 2009, the total number of non-agricultural self-employed people fell. But the number of self-employed Blacks increased 5.7 percent. In contrast, the number of self-employed Whites decreased 3.4 percent, self-employment among Asians decreased 10.5 percent, and self-employment among Latinos remained flat.
• Black self employment had been growing much faster than White self-employment. Though he measures self-employment differently from the BLS data described above, analysis by Professor Rob Fairlie at the University of California at Santa Cruz shows that between 1990 and 2006 the number of Black self-employed increased 58 percent, while the number of White self-employed only increased 6 percent.
• Moreover, the 2008 U.S. Global Entrepreneurship Monitor Report shows that Blacks “have higher levels of start-up activities than whites (13.9% vs. 8.4%) while having significantly lower rates of established ventures (8.1% vs. 1.8%).” Perhaps the strong growth trend in Black self-employment resulted in increases during a period when other races experienced declines.
• Historically, Blacks have been more likely than Whites to be self-employed in personal services and have been less likely than Whites to be self-employed in construction, manufacturing, and finance. The recession’s effects were much worse in the goods sector, especially manufacturing and construction, than in the service sector. The differences in the industry distribution of self-employment across racial groups might account for the increase in self employment among Blacks and the decline among Whites.
• Alternatively these patterns could be the result of how the labor market treats different racial groups. As Rob Fairlie of U.C. Santa Cruz speculates, “With fewer opportunities for wage and salary jobs, minorities may be increasingly turning to self-employment.” Implicit in that statement is the view that when employment gets tight, job losses fall harder on Blacks than on others, leading them toward self-employment at a faster rate.
http://smallbiztrends.com/2010/02/black-self-employment-rose-during-the-recession.html
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But hey but we are low IQ wastrels. The worst type of subhuman to be born on this planet. We are harbingers of death, diseases, violence and have single-handedly made Asian Americans lives a complete and utter misery. Well then since you find our presence so obscenely objectionable, then not only should you leave our neighborhoods, but I honestly think your best bet is to arm yourselves and take the necessary action and also align yourself with other Whites, Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans who have claimed a visceral dislike and hatred for the mess that is African American and implement a final solution or simple annihilation.
After all, once you all have eliminated us from your presence as the sub-human alien species that you think we are—then Asian Americans will prosper and multiply right. You all will be free of racism, whining, hypocrisy and violence. So please, actively pursue the means to salvage your race—and have the courage to loudly state your hatred and do the work necessary to ensure that we don’t infect your race, culture and livelihood anymore.
steveb, if you’re gonna talk ’statistics’ and ‘facts’, at least try to look at the bigger picture. Yes, blacks may have a large percentage of criminals, but they also have a large percentage living in poverty and the recession has hit them harder than any other ethnic group. Studies have linked poverty and crime, and violent behavior has more to do with surroundings and upbringings and less with skin color. Many blacks do condemn these acts of violence, and most of them try to live normal lives (despite the constant difficulties of institutionalized racism) like you and me and are not hateful toward non-blacks.
While I have no sympathy for those criminals who attack innocent people, they do not represent the black community any more than the Hutaree militia represent white people as a bunch of crazy gun-toting fundamentalists. The gist of this is that while the media is quick to latch onto news of black violence, there are no humanizing or uplifiting stories to counter this negative imagery and it becomes ingrained into the public psyche. In order to overcome this negative programming, both Black and Asian communities need more dialogue and interaction, not isolation.
LL, you seem like a very intelligent person. People might take you seriously if you drop the condescending tone.
Goddamn, this shit went downhill fast. I feel sorry for you, Jenn.
Well, LL, explain percentages….those statistics are all over the board and contradictory at best. Meaningless in the face of reality because they will be skewed for political reasons and you know it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY2S3wdFVY
enough said.
Leon…blacks need to rethink their approach with others across the board. It ain’t just Asians American blacks are having issues with…Hispanics, whites, even Africans.
It is not a two way street but rather American blacks need to create more than just cheap talk…and they need to start with each other because when you don’t even respect your own group (through behaviors and actions) aside from lip service, then you won’t accept other groups. Fix yourselves first…the rest will fall into line.
Leon…you are using the same old tired arguments that no longer work. Blaming it on society is no way to go through life. Time to quit talking and actually do something about yourselves.
Leon…you are using the same old tired arguments that no longer work. Blaming it on society is no way to go through life. Time to quit talking and actually do something about yourselves.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/28/BA9G1D6APO.DTL&tsp=1
People might take you seriously if you drop the condescending tone.
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Why should I be more amenable to a posters who has no trouble using obnoxious, vile generalizations and assumptions to highlight endemic Black pathology. He sees us as holding Asians hostage. He clearly sees Blacks as impeding on his community’s ability to thrive—thus why shouldn’t he receive the same blistering contempt that he so liberally espouses at Black people. I mean its all our fault after all.
Well, LL, explain percentages….those statistics are all over the board and contradictory at best. Meaningless in the face of reality because they will be skewed for political reasons and you know it.
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No the stats are based on your belief while you chortled in disbelief that Blacks don’t own any businesses and don’t have any entrpuneural will compared to Asians and Whites, when the facts as stated by the Census bureau (I guess they have some weird agenda to prop up Black people) show:
An increase that outstrips the national average, The types of businesses that Blacks will own, And the level of education of some Black b business owners.
None of the information is contradictory but the second link shows that even when Black attempt to engage society as respectable members, opportunities were denied Blacks –in this case bailout money for small businesses, yet Whites got the bulk of it followed by you Asians and the little bit for Hispanics. But that can’t be racism, just Black with their usual tired race card and race excuses as to why they aren’t successful and law abiding like Asians. And of course, the reason can’t be that Blacks run bad businesses when the Census data clearly show not only an increase in Black owned businesses especially in the last 15 years, but their longevity and the fact that they stay in-service oriented fields which are more likely to be recession proof compared to Whites who actually lost out in finance and construction, yet Whites still get more money and entitlements, that you and other Asians think Blacks get at the expense of your own community.
The third link clearly shows that Blacks have always had a tradition in this country of an enetrpuenal spirit in business by choosing self employment due to the fact that racism and discrimination effectively shuts out a lot of blacks from accessing conventional work opportunities compared to Whites and Asians. Therefore the numbers aren’t skewed being as I did most of the work for you, while you were quite content to disparage the collective pathologies of Black people as not even remotely human, and laughing at the very idea that Blacks can also be productive law abiding citizens, business owners, with a high degree of intelligence and decency.
So since you and other Asians despise us and since we are gorilla in the mist animals, then as one commenter on the article you referenced about Black thugs beating up and killing defenseless old Chinese people, stated perhaps you all should enlist the help of the KKK to purge Blacks from your existence. You have the hook that will give you all the sympathy and justification from Whites, Asians, and Hispanics due to our propensity for violence, our hate crimes against your people and our incomprehensible level of depravity.
No one will stop any of you.
@ Chris
I respect your contribution to the dialogue. I highly respect you for seeing both sides of the conversation instead of immediately writing me off as a bigot simply because I verbalize things that many people are reluctant to say. And I also want to say that I fully understand the historical injustices black people have faced, the severe victimization, and the inequalities that persists to this day. I’m committed to stopping black-on-asian violence (and vice versa when it happens) and I’m sorry that the bad behavior of some black people unjustly reflects poorly on all black people. Obviously there are many law-abiding regular folks like you, but good people like you are not what I’m talking about right now. My current focus is on stopping violence, and stopping the apologists who rationalize the violence.
Another thing, I am not against interracial relationships at all. I could care less if asian women date black men. What I talked about earlier was a fringe culture unique to Japan. And as I said earlier, I would not label these women as “sluts” simply because they date black people. I’ve already said that I believe women are the sole owner of their sexuality. I merely assented that in Japan, within that particular culture, such women are viewed by their society as “sluts” because they do not conform to the “proper” behavior. Japan is a modern but still rigid society and people are expected to look and behave in a certain way. Schools in Japan still routinely check uniforms and have strict dress codes (you can’t even wear fancy socks). The ganguro girls wear excessive makeup, try to make their hair into fros, and artificially tan their skin very dark. In the eyes of proper japanese society, such girls and women are disrespectable. And no doubt many parents lament their child behaving in such a manner.
And by the way, I’m an asian female. And though I have met very pushy men, I can honestly say I’ve never gotten cussed out for turning a guy down. Here’s to hoping my lucky streak continues.
@steveb
I know asians with big lips too and it probably looks great on them. But *I* would cry myself to sleep if I had jolie’s lips due to my personal aesthetic preference. My earlier comment was in reference to my belief that it is possible to admire a physical trait without actually wanting it for yourself. It was to emphasize that LIKING something isn’t the same as WANTING something. I think Jolie’s lips looks great. But I would never want it for myself. It doesn’t suite my face because I have very delicate features. But that doesn’t mean I can’t notice the beauty of her lips. Do you know what I mean? Therefore it is possible for an asian person to find a white person attractive or a white person to find an asian person attractive without either person actually wanting to become the other’s race.
Most importantly, I highly disagree with your statement that the corporate glass ceiling has more to do with “vertical thinking” on the part of asian employees. The very fact that countless “creative” products from comics to videogames to technology are created by asian industries, or non-asian industries staffed by asian researchers who do more than mere “grunt work” prove asians are in no lack of ingenuity. And I don’t know how familiar you are with biotech research but there are countless ingenious research and novel ideas that are helmed by asian researchers of all nationality (including american). We are only taught the few “major” scientific discoveries in school and it is no coincidence that most of these discoveries where made by whites. But a well-rounded reader who learns beyond the narrow scope of school will realize innovation is a core aspect of asian culture and post industrialization era only taught asia to excel even faster or risk becoming irrelevant.
Because american society chooses to elevate the likes of athletes and actors over academics, no one other than those in the scientific community realize just how common it is to find asians with “non-vertical” thinking. Off the top of my head, I can think of one asian-american researcher who is currently studying for ways to fight HIV. HIV is a retrovirus with high mutation rate which makes it an extremely tricky bast*ard to fight. Definitely a formidable opponent for a formidable man.
Race, still affects asians but in very subtle manners. It is hard to notice because the racism is exercised by the process of eliminating asian people from public awareness and so how can anyone notice racism against asians if asians aren’t talked about or seen? And when asian people DO accomplish something that cannot be ignored, the racial identity of the person is sometimes obfuscated while the accomplishment is praised. To this day, it is common practice for hollywood to take asian stories with asian characters and completely replace the cast with whites. This has happened with COUNTLESS movies so I will only list the most recent example: The harrison ford movie about the researcher who found a cure for his sick child was actually based on a Chinese/Taiwanese researcher. It is standard practice to take plum asian-american narratives and wipe away the asian and replace it with the white.
there IS a persistant problem among non-asians when it comes to recognizing asian ingenuity. The belief that asians are hardworking but non-creative is a belief that’s been in the west since Chinese workers first came to this country because if asians were not only hard working but also INTELLIGENT, they’d pose too much a threat. In fact, if you read some of the things written in the 1800s about “the chinaman”, you’d find the exact same sentiment, just phrased with different language. The gist of their belief is that asians are well-behaved, servile, industrious, but not so independent in mind and behavior that they’d threaten the whites.
To explain away the lack of asians in high corporate positions as a result of some inherent lack of creative thinking is unfair. I’d like to remind you that it wasn’t that long ago when women were thought to be incapable of higher reasoning and indeed, there were no women in occupations that require education and intelligence. but when society made it legal for women to strive for more, more and more women became doctors, scientists, and researchers. The fact that there are women scientists today isn’t because women suddenly became more intelligent. It’s because society finally gave women the chance to excel.
Another problem that asian people are saddled with is the sole expectation of academic greatness. It’s a problem because anyone who has the gift to do something else faces an uphill battle. A Harvard asian american basketball player mentioned in his interviews that a lot of people find it incomprehensible that he enjoys basketball and more importantly, plays it well. In spite of his skills, he didn’t get a sports scholarship. And he also mentions that he often faces racial insults while on court, even in Ivy Leagu schools. The racist stuff he hears are the sort of things that’d create a huge scandal if directed at anyone but an asian person. Currently, another asian-american man has just been drafted into the NFL. He ALSO mentions having to fight people’s expectations.
What I find incredibly admirable in both these men is their ability to preserver in spite of low-expectations and obstruction by others. The basketball player’s attitude towards being on the receiving end of racial taunts was surprisingly mature. He handles it with grace. I’m not sure I’d be able to deal with such abuses without sinking to their level. The NFL player also said he was often ostracized growing up but his parents always told him that he simply had to learn to handle such things. What his mother told him was VERY chinese. She said to him that as long as he did the right thing, he will be noticed eventually. That’s a completely asian perspective.
Anytime New America Media is referenced it is a given it is political tripe. Stats can be skewed for any purpose and are used to veneer the truth. Your stats are meaningless in relation to the environment blacks inhabit.
Yes, there are black run businesses. There are no absolutes. So you explain why Koreans and others open businesses in black areas, try to make a honest buck, but are treated like crap by black clientele. Beaten, robbed, shoplifted from….
Why do cesspools like Oakland exist? Why do Philly black students assault Asian students? This is the kind of entrepreneurship blacks are famous for. The reputation is well deserved.
Even Jesse Jackson admitted it.
I already know what you are going to say.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/29/BAJL1D68SF.DTL&tsp=1
Time for you African-Americans to get your house in order. Embrace Bill Cosby, not lil wayne…oh, gosh, he’s in prison. Chris Brown…oh, wait, he beat Rihanna almost to death. Well then, tupac..oh wait, he was murdered. Maybe Kanye…oh wait, he did a racist outburst at the VMA against another performer…because she is white.
Athletes wouldn’t be much different.
The list is long and undignified.
Go figure.
Cheap talk, “venting” will achieve nothing until blacks decide to police their own…clean up their act. Until then, nothing will be achieved. Dialog…ya right. That’s the fix…cheap dialog. That’ll do it. That will bring my in-laws business back into a black area.
Right.
Lets do group hugs while we are at it. That will really fix the problem. And humpty dumpty was put back together.
Bottomline…when blacks get their house in order then the rest will follow.
LL…I wouldn’t expect you to be amenable…or amiable….or any able at all.
You simply live in denial.
Thus, we have found the crux of the problem in its entirety.
It really is a race war…and you are your own enemy.
[...] it just didn’t happen, finally fell on the back-burner. Recently, however, I read another post (here) that addressed this topic, but in a manner that felt – to me – to retain the very same [...]
[...] it just didn’t happen, finally fell on the back-burner. Recently, however, I read another post (here) that addressed this topic, but in a manner that felt – to me – to retain the very same [...]
jm…my comment on vertical thinking is reality in the industry I am familiar with and it is a fact and a valid observation.
http://www.braingle.com/mind/222/lateral-vs-vertical-thinking.html
Case in point…Samsung typically creates multiple engineering teams to address a problem or a do a design…they essentially compete. This is effective because they are given marching orders to focus which narrows. Then all are evaluated and cherry picked. Breadth of each team is sacrificed for depth. Is it effective? You bet. Does it predict tunnel vision at the team level? You bet. Is it cost effective?…Samsung is certainly a very successful company so one could say yes.
But what it enables is vertical thinking at the cost of lateral thinking at the team level. I think the attached link explains it very well so ultimately one can argue that Samsung is wasting valuable engineering energy to come up with a final solution. This is how Samsung creates lateral in a vertical environment.
Typically western companies assign a engineering team to address a issue and are given the latitude to explore and are encouraged to think outside the box, make mistakes, experiment. No idea, how far fetched as it may seem, is not worth considering.
Different approaches to realize solutions and both have pros and cons. I also speak of what works with the company I am attached in our environment. Industries may vary…I do know what works in our work environment. Dealing with Singapore to a large degree, we feel some of their engineering approaches are overly vertical and confining….sometimes costly in time and money.
Having said that…we are highly dependent upon each other to get our stuff manufactured and delivered…quality intact and on time. We are the mother ship and we had a huge learning curve towards learning to effectively interact with the Singapore engineering discipline. Come to Jesus meetings just didn’t bear fruit but the partnership approach allows us all to see the forest and not just trees. But our economies of scale just aren’t great enough to assign multiple engineering teams to create magic.
Leadership wise, I think highly qualified Asians have been denied access by their individual track record of overly rigid vertical thinking to problem solving in our work culture.
Also, I do not think Asians are not creative. That is baloney. But I believe that cultural structures enables more rigid thinking in many arenas. Straight “roads” are preferred over curved. Given the latitude, nothing is impossible. The key is latitude.
My wife and I have to be the perfect couple complementary wise because we went through what I believe to be an amazing metamorphosis of two entirely different approaches to where we have become relatively singular without losing our distinct thought processes. She is VERY creative and I am more disciplined, although probably not enough for her.
Individually,
Both cultures offer wonderful qualities. It appears the problem within races comes from each believing the stereotypes and lies feed by the white man, especially about the black man. Asian’s can be closed and less willing to explore new cultures especially black. I’d have to say that most black people do not view asians as financially superior, as implied by the author. We as astute to know when an individual or group is going through tough times. And you are. Perhaps, those stores enhancing their economic fitness, would do well to sponsor community events and show some kind of love back to their customers.
Good luck in the East bay
~ San Jose, CA
@Steveb
I’m going to keep this short because I’d like to do other things tonight too.
I’m going to use game consoles as an example. Xbox360 is made by microsoft while PS3 is made by Sony. Both are current gen consoles and both, except for some exceptions, can play the same games. Except PS3 has higher specs and a higher cost whereas xbox has lower specs and lower costs. What the two consoles are competing over is the gamer’s preference for quality vs affordability.
In my opinion, it seems like microsoft is the one with the lateral thinking here. I really don’t buy your lateral thinking argument but if that’s what you believe then so be it.
lol bigblacksexy…blame it on whitey. That’s the problem. It is the white man’s fault those thugs murdered Mr. Yu. Ya, right. Those stereotypes and lies “feed” by da white man is da real problem.
So you are expecting handouts (under the guise of “community events” to show some “kind love” back to customers….meaning black customers) from the people you rob, steal, and assault?
Funny, my in-laws are under no expectations to show “kind love” via “community events” and showing in their present business location. I wonder why that is. Maybe we as astute to know.
Get real. You ARE the problem.
[...] America Media also featured a response by Asian-American blogger Reappropriate titled “Inside Black-Asian Tension: Sometimes It Is About Racism.” She points out that if you consider Asian-Americans as ideal prey, “how is this not still racist [...]
fact is blacks have a hard time getting along with everybody. too many blacks and your school or neighborhood or team or whatever is ruined. why? who knows? i know its not fair to some indivisuals and i am painting with a broad brush but the fact is that american blacks as a whole tend to be lazy, stupid, irresponsible, impulsive, undisciplined, prone to crime, drugs and violence, dirty, smelly, loud, rude, crude, obnoxious, etc. and they always want to blame somebody else for their own failings and shortcomings. its no wonder they aren’t accepted by any other people. you can try and begin with an open mind but soon they will ruin it for you and you don’t want to associate with them. its a pity but thats the way it is. and thats not fair to many fine black individuals but as a whole they just don’t measure up to whites, asians, mexican, indians, mid-easterners, latins, et al… if they would begin to act better they would eventually be accepted. most of them are probably okay. its probably a minority that ruin it for all of them. too bad really.
mark, your comments are incredibly racist. they depend upon unfounded racial stereotypes against blacks. they are not based on fact or even basic common sense, and do not contribute to the quality of debate i expect on this blog.
if you want to participate in comments on this blog, you need to do better than to spout fantastic, unsupported, ridiculous racial stereotypes disguised as “fact”.
The folks from Model Minority never disappoint.